Karl Schmid speaks with writer/performer, Nathaniel Hall.
KARL
It was this secret inside me. So that’s when I decided to change the narrative and tell a new story.
Welcome to +Talk on +Life where we’re all about turning positive into a plus. And my guest today has been doing that on the small screen and more recently on stage. Joining me today, Nathaniel Hall from Manchester. Hey Nathaniel.
NATHANIEL
Hey, how are you doing?
KARL
I’m doing quite well. Thank you very much for asking, appreciate that. We know you over here in the states from It’s a Sin which congratulations, I know is now available on Netflix, which is super cool.
NATHANIEL
It is, yeah. I’m not sure if it’s on Netflix USA yet, but hopefully very soon ’cause that means also you get to see it and I get royalties.
KARL
Ah, well that’s we like that. If it’s not on Netflix here, it’s definitely on HBO Max. That’s where I saw it.
NATHANIEL
Yeah.
KARL
And really enjoyed it. And we’ll get to that in a minute, but let’s talk about you because like me, you’re somebody who’s in the media and you’re in the public eye and you’re also living with HIV and quite proudly living with HIV. When did you decide that you were ready to be open and public and honest, not just sort of within friends and family, but essentially the world, and what drove you to do it?
NATHANIEL
Well this version of me is very different to a version of me back in sort of about 2017. And that was the real turning point for me. I’d lived with HIV for about 15 years, at that point, diagnosed at 16, from my first sexual experience, but I kept it secret for a very, very long time. Not uncommon, as we know, and slowly over time that self stigma and that shame kind of ate away at me. And in 2017, I found myself looking in the mirror catching myself in the mirror two days after a house party, not recognizing who I was. Drugs, alcohol, sex, they’re all fun things if you’re pursuing them for fun but not if they’re masking pain. And I realized at that point, that’s what had happened and loads of other things, my career had stagnated. I was in a very, very toxic codependent relationship and something had to give, and I knew what it was, it was this secret inside me. So that’s when I decided to change the narrative and tell a new story. And I decided to do that very publicly, as you do, on stage in a show called First Time, which premiered in 2018.
KARL
So let’s talk about this stigma smashing solo show of yours, First Time. You’ve just finished touring the UK with it. Give us a bit of what it’s about. Is it your story? Is it a version of you?
NATHANIEL
People ask me, is everything in the show true? And actually almost everything is, obviously it’s a dramatization, like I’ve changed a few little bits, but it’s all really, it’s kind of like warts and all true. You meet me at the start of this show in a state of panic. I’ve not been to bed, I’m not ready to do the show. And it ends in a really hopeful place which is kind of where I wanted it to ’cause that’s the trajectory that I was on. So. Yeah.
KARL
So when you decide, okay, I’m gonna come out about my HIV status, I’m gonna do it in a play. How do you go about getting that produced and getting that on stage? What’s the process? And did you have people hesitant to do it because people still don’t like to talk about HIV?
NATHANIEL
Well, blood, sweat, and tears is the way you do it. If anyone works in the arts industry, you’ll know that. I run a theater company, which was in its infancy back then, but my friend, Chris Hoyle, who’s a co-artist director with me, he knew my story. And I just said to him one night as, all good ideas happen, and I just said, I wanna tell my story. I’m ready. And he was just like, I wanna do it with you. And it was amazing to have him all the way through as a friend and as a colleague to support me through that. I started doing some writing. I was doing scratch nights. I’ve got a drag alter ego called Sue from Sexual Health who, I was workshopping at scratch nights and on standup nights. And then, once I felt ready, I saw an opportunity for some money at a theater in south Manchester. And I applied and they loved the idea. It premiered in 2018. It went really well, but also a lot of people found out about it because my story hit the headlines and we weren’t quite expecting that. It was the run up to World Aids Day and BuzzFeed News did an incredible article. And then that kind of snowballed. And then there was BBC news and then I was on the breakfast couch, and kind of daytime TV and all this stuff. So there was all these cameras around the theater and around that moment as well which was kind of a lot to deal with.
KARL
Yeah, well, but great PR and I think something like over 70,000 people have now seen the piece. Just talking about that, about suddenly you’re in the spotlight and you’re on the couch at Good Morning Britain and all of the BBC Breakfast and things like that. And no doubt people are asking you, or telling you how courageous you are for sharing your story. As a man, living with HIV, do you ever think it sucks that I have to be called, sort of having courage in this day and age for talking about this?
NATHANIEL
Yeah, I do. And I always say, I still feel like a kid from Stockport. I still feel like the kids that were 16, and that thing happened to me. It’s just a thing that happened. It’s not like a remarkable story. And I do. Yeah. Particularly if you talk about your story publicly, you’re on a pedestal and you are a role model to people and that’s a real honor and a privilege particularly for other people that live with HIV. And I have had lots of people, message me, thousands of people actually over the last few years. And that’s really humbling, even if they haven’t seen my show, they’ve read my story or seen it on the telly and it’s inspired them in some way to move towards being open. Because for me now, living openly, I can’t believe I lived for so long, not. The things, the damage that did to me psychologically, not being open and not fighting through that stigma and shame, is crazy. And I just want a world where everyone for HIV is comfortable to do that, you know? And where it’s not, when people don’t turn around and say it’s courageous, because it’s just really normal to know someone living with HIV in your life.
KARL
Yeah, and I totally relate when, the number it does on us, stigma in general but the internalized stigma that I didn’t even realize I had.
NATHANIEL
Yeah.
KARL
Until I spoke publicly about it, like, I used to make jokes. Oh. And I thought I was joking like, “oh you don’t wanna date me, I’m damaged goods”. And I would say it like that, like, ah, and I didn’t realize that every time I said that, there was a little bit in the back of my head that actually filed it away as I believed it. And, it’s a very sort of cathartic experience. And speaking of that, the writing and I’m assuming that the writing and putting this together has gotta be quite cathartic, so that the time comes when you stand on that stage to give the first performance, where are you at with your comfort level? Were you still absolutely shit scared? Or had you embraced what was gonna happen because you’d been creating.
NATHANIEL
No, the former definitely, absolutely shit scared because there was also, everything else wrapped up in it, it’s a story that you’re putting out there, but also, it was my writing. It’s my performing. It’s all your creativity and your talent you’re putting out. And it’s a double whammy, if someone turns around and said they don’t like it, because it that feels like a personal attack, when it’s your own story. So all that fear was, was very much there. There wasn’t so much a fear of any sort of backlash or anything like that, but it was more around maybe more around people like going “we’ve heard that story” or “that story’s not interesting”, or it was too egocentric and all those doubts that you get as an artist, sort of all creep in. But I was terrified when I first, I don’t know I got through that first performance, honestly. I do not know, but each time it got easier. And then the show was redeveloped into a touring piece. And actually, because I’ve been fortunate enough to perform it over a long period of time repeatedly, it’s enabled me to actually delve a bit deeper because there was things that I was avoiding, places I was avoiding going to in the original show. And actually, as it moved on and I’ve got more comfortable with my own story and my own past, and it was processed, I could really push down right into the root of it, and with that performance particularly, and go to a place that I couldn’t previously, which is really good.
KARL
Yeah. And look, the success has been fantastic and not just for yourself but really when you think about, as you’ve said, what it means to other people who are living with HIV. And as I often say, I refer to it as sort of standing in the shadows of life rather than out in the sunshine and are terrified to step into the sunshine. And all of this of course leads to It’s a Sin, which has done phenomenal. I’m trying to think, like 11 BAFTA nominations.
NATHANIEL
Yeah.
KARL
When that project comes along, how do you feel? What’s the reaction to it for you?
NATHANIEL
Well, I remember it was Russell T Davies, who’s the writer, he lives part-time in Manchester where I’m from. So I heard on the grapevine that he was writing this show and it was around the time I was doing my show in 2018. And I said to my agent, I was like, this is literally, this is the perfect, the perfect match. I was like, “I have to be seen for this”. But prior to me making my show, First Time, my acting career had really stalled because I suffer from generalized anxiety disorder and PTSD. And I’d not realized that, I just thought I’d become, I wasn’t a very good actor ’cause I just couldn’t do auditions and all these things. And actually, I now realized that it was all this other stuff going on for me. And there was even self sabotage there and a lack of belief. But at that moment, I just said Russell needs to come and see this show. Unfortunately he couldn’t. But I messaged him on Instagram, which is really unprofessional and I don’t recommend it to budding actors, but I just thought, I’m just gonna try it. And I did. And he messaged me straight back. He was like, I’ve heard about your show. Loads of people have told me. Let’s go for a coffee. So I just sat in a coffee shop and he’s like one of my absolute screen writing legends, he was the creator of Queer as Folk which has had an amazing spin-off in the US as well. And I just sat there opposite. And he basically had a one person show, I did it for him in a coffee shop, told him my story. And then he said, he said you’re too young for the main character, too old for the main characters but there may be a role in there for you with a bit of a glint in his eye and walked off. And then the rest is history. I got invited to audition with, a producer came to see my show and for me, it was amazing. And I think I’ve spoken to a lot of other people living with HIV who said that actually, without an actor living with HIV in the show, they may not have watched it.
KARL
Yeah.
NATHANIEL
Or they may have switched off, because for them, and I understand that, there’s a real discomfort in our stories being capitalized on or whatever. So I think it was really important that the show had that and yeah. Amazing, just what an amazing experience.
KARL
All right. That’s gonna do it for this episode of +Talk. If you wanna just watch this again or find out more about Nathaniel, check out the website pluslifemedia.com and remember to follow us across social media platforms. we are @pluslifemedia. Until next time, stay safe, wash your hands be friendly to one another. We’ll see you soon.