The following is a transcript of the conversation between Karl Schmid and Mark Fisher, Executive Director of Body Positive, Inc.
KARK
We’re talking positive sperm and babies next. Welcome to Plus Talk on plus life where we’re all about turning positive into a plus. And boy, are we being positive today? Now, you may have heard the news headlines at the end of last year that the world’s first HIV sperm bank has produced its first healthy babies. And I’m joined today with Mark Fisher, he is the Executive Director of Body Positive all the way down there in New Zealand. Kiarra Mark, good to see you, sir.
MARK
Karl, thanks for having me.
KARL
It’s nice to connect with folks down in New Zealand ’cause that’s where I spent a lot of my years growing up and going to high school, and it makes my heart warm and quite proud that New Zealand is the home of the first HIV positive sperm bank.
MARK
Yeah, it’s a really great achievement and it’s actually every time I hear stories from people that have been involved in that, it’s really uplifting in terms of the message and the achievement.
KARL
Well, congratulations. And now the fruits of this wonderful bank are being born. There are healthy, happy babies out there. Tell me about how it all got started and the work that Body Positive does, and how sperm positive came about.
MARK
So, well Body Positive is an HIV support organization in New Zealand. There’s only three organizations like us and we all came together on this project because we thought there wasn’t enough emphasis. We are focusing on things like there lots of stigma stuff. That’s where our focus is and supporting people. And we realized that we really needed to do some work in this space because it would actually be a really rewarding process as well as really raising awareness and eliminating a lot of that self stigma that a lot of people feel, and raise just the level of conversation essentially around U equals U. Bringing it home to the fact that people can have children if they want.
KARL
So many people still think that that is an impossibility. And then we get our HIV diagnosis, that’s just one of the many things we think is going to be impossible. And then reason why we should all throw ourselves down a dark hole and never come back out. But, what’s interesting in doing the homework and reading is that there are a lot of people who wanna have babies in New Zealand, but there’s a long wait list. So, something like sperm positive is really helpful.
MARK
That was a really surprising pace with this. So, a lot of HIV is amongst gay men. Gay and bisexual men in New Zealand is at 75%. And so they thought that they couldn’t have kids, ’cause they’re gay, they’re not diagnosed, and so they thought it a double whammy that they would never have children even though they wanted to do that. And then in New Zealand, it’s around a two year wait if you’re a woman wanting to have a donor. Just because we don’t have donations, so it’s all done through altruism and people just don’t donate. And so now we had this perfect storm of people who thought they couldn’t have kids and wanted to donate to have children. And lots of women who were desperate to find somebody who would be a willing donor. And so we launched in 2019 and we immediately had a whole raft of people coming through that wanted to have children. And the HIV part wasn’t even a consideration. The story with Amy, her mom said, “I didn’t even think about HIV as being an issue, this is another opportunity I can go ahead and I can have a child.” And now we have Amy and it’s really amazing.
KARL
Talk about fighting HIV stigma. And to your point, we’re fighting the stigma and we’re also doing some good as well with what you guys are doing there. You said, you organized in 2019. Were there any pushbacks? I’m sure because of the stigma and people’s uneducated views, was there any pushback or negativity initially, and how did you guys get through that?
MARK
We have to do a lot of work with the fertility clinics to get them on board, ’cause they didn’t understand it. They’re still in the world of sperm washing, which when the Swiss Statement came out, it was around you didn’t have to do sperm washing anymore. And that was 2008, and we’re still in that mindset. And so that’s where they were coming from, and so we really had to change their way of thinking, their procedures and policies and stuff so that they could support people through that process. So, then some of them were amazing and fully on board and others are still resistant and I’m still getting a lot of that feedback from people around the world. There’s a couple in Germany who have been trying for a year with a friend who’s HIV positive undetectable for 10 years, nobody will help them to have a child. And that’s now, it’s just crazy that the Swiss Statement has been around for this long and nobody is still getting that support. So, we did get a lot of negativity and skepticism around it, but we had to shift our mindset on U equals U to really commit to it, because there was all that hesitancy originally where people would say it reduces risk, there’s virtually elimination kind of thing.
KARL
That’s right.
MARK
Like all that hesitancy. It’s like we actually have to commit to this ’cause the data is there, the science is there, we have to say, you cannot transmit HIV. And this is in 2019. So, it’s come a lot along further since then, but still there’s a lot of hesitancy. So, when we produced the book that we’ve sent out, a lot of people are really skeptical about supporting it because they’re like can we commit to this message of saying you can have a child safely when you’re undetectable. And it’s like well, if you’ve committed to U equals U, you must be able to say that. It’s about really raising that bar and enforcing the commitment to U equals U.
KARL
And now you have healthy babies to prove it.
MARK
We’ve got five babies now, it’s amazing. And I talked to one of the dads, he’s donated to two of the children, and one of the couples is a lesbian couple. And so one mum had a child this year and then the other mum wants to have a child next year with the same dad. So, they’re genetically linked, which is really, really unique. And now he’s looking at having a surrogate so he can have his own child as well.
KARL
What has been the reaction from the donors? As I said, babies are being born, what do you think this has done for HIV positive men, and that internalized stigma that so many of us live with?
MARK
For a lot of people, just even knowing this is possible and reading the stories, is a real mind change for people ’cause they didn’t think it was possible. It’s something that people had put aside thinking, I’m HIV positive, I can’t have children, I just won’t think about that anymore. And now they’ve realized actually I can. And I know one of my girlfriends wanted to have a child with my husband who was positive like 20 years ago, and she didn’t go ahead with it because they didn’t think it was possible. So, she was really upset when she found out that she could have done that now. So, I think for the people that we’re working with now, they’re just a light that they can actually do this ’cause it’s something they’ve always wanted to do and now it’s happened and they’ve got kids.
KARL
And you mentioned you talked to people all over the world, people in Germany, what’s the reaction been like since these news headlines hit back in November of last year? And are you now getting an influx of people from all over the world going, when is New Zealand opening its borders so I can come down and donate?
MARK
The problem is we’re getting a lot of inquiries from places like Chile and other places where there’s a lot of stigma that’s overwhelming for them. And so it’s really heartbreaking in terms of what they’re dealing with. And most of our focus at this point has been getting agencies to come on board to upskill and get behind the message. So, in Germany were reaching out to HIV organizations there. I’m doing a lot of that in Canada, the U S, the UK, trying to get them up to speed in terms of committing to this message and being really supportive and making sure that every person knows that they can have a kid if they want to. So that’s where we’re putting it.
KARL
And do you think that we’re gonna see more HIV positive sperm banks not just in New Zealand, but around the world here in America?
MARK
Well, so what we’re predominantly doing is we’re doing a matching program. So, we were connecting people up with other people that wanna have children, and they don’t actually need to go to a fertility clinic for the assistance ’cause they don’t have any other issues going on, so most of our people are doing home insemination. And people just didn’t realize they could even do that. It’s like if you do have a friend who you wanna have a child with, you can just do it yourself. And if you don’t wanna do it naturally, then you can do a turkey baster model. And that’s totally fine and it works. So, but if you want the extra support and the legal pieces, then you can go through a fertility clinic to make sure everything’s safe and well-managed and all those kinds of things. But, that’s gonna take a little bit more work. In overseas places to get those places on board to make sure they support, ’cause I old immediately defer to sperm washing and all over just reject outright in terms of supporting people.
KARL
I think what you guys have done down there is phenomenal. And as I said, as someone who holds New Zealand close to his heart because I spent many of my formative years. I’m so proud to see that you guys are leading the way and showing the world and just the ongoing support of U equals U and getting that message out there, more better way to do it than producing beautiful, healthy, happy human beings. Mark Fisher, thank you so much for joining me. That’s going to do it for this episode of Plus Talk. If you want more information about what we’ve talked about, check out our website, pluslifemedia.com. We’ll put all the info up on there, and until next time stay safe, take care of each other. And remember, you can always turn positive into a plus.