Nathaniel J. Hall joins +Talk to discuss his new documentary film, Big Chasers: The Men Who Want HIV.
The following is a transcript between Karl and Nathaniel.
KARL
I want your toxic load.
Infect me, give me HIV I want it. These are the words that people who refer to themselves as bug chasers often use. And joining me on plus talk today is Nathaniel J Hall, who has just done a fascinating documentary on this topic. Bug Chasing. Good to see you, Nathaniel.
NATHANIEL
Oh, hi. How are you doing? Thanks for having
KARL
Me. I’m doing really well. Your documentary left my jaw on the floor. Now what is bug chasing?
NATHANIEL
Well, so bug chasing is a sexual fetish, a phenomenon. It’s, it’s, you know, happening in a minority of cases. It’s a really, really small minority. A minority within a minority, within a minority almost, if you will. But book chasing are book chases are people who fetishize the HIV virus. So who within the community, you have people who are chasing, so people who are actively seeking to become HIV positive themselves. And then you have people who gift. So people who are not taking HIV medication who pass it on. Now I’ve heard about, which I’ve been diagnosed with HIV for 20 years, and anyone that lives with HIV prob who’s a gay man or is a man who has sexually men has probably been asked at some point whether they would gift their HIV, you know, so I’ve been aware of it. And there’s also lots of stories about Russian roulette parties and barebacking parties and this kind of thing, sort of rumors abound within our community. And I just was really fascinated to try and understand is it actually happening? Are people engaged in this? Is it just fantasy? Is it just something that plays out online? Is it what’s going on here? And why are, if people are doing it, why are they doing it as well?
KARL
When you hear statements like I just made at the top there, you know, infect me, give me HIVI want your toxic load. How does that make you feel as somebody who is passionate like I am in the fight ending HIV and stopping the spread and you equals you and stuff like that.
NATHANIEL
Most of my life is like sort of trying to, to educate people, tell people how to not get HIV and we walk this really tricky line, don’t we? Because we’re constantly, as activists going, if you get HIV, it’s gonna be okay. Like, there’s medication particularly, you know, not in every, in every context, but in, in a us and the uk you know, there are, there is access to medication and you know, for the most part you’re gonna be okay. But that betrays a truth that we know that life with HIV is more difficult still. There is still HIV stigma, you know, we don’t really know about what getting older with HIV looks like, will we be looked after properly in care settings, you know, all these kind of things and increased psychological impacts. We want this line of sort of going, it’s okay if you get HIV, don’t worry about it. I’m trying to reduce the stigma, but also trying to stop people from getting it. So when I hear things like that, it’s quite, it’s quite challenging for me. But I do recognize that as someone who’s lived with HIV for 20 years, my, my take in it is quite bias. And that was one of the other reasons why I wanted to make the, the, the documentary and challenge my own preconceptions and speak to people who don’t think like me on the subject to maybe learn something more about it.
KARL
You described the process as exhausting because of the group self-harm. What do you mean by that?
NATHANIEL
As I spoke to the, the, the Dr. Jamie who would meet in the documentary and, and that was obviously a very long conversation. A 20 minute documentary is kicked down to just a few moments really. But what that conversation revealed was very much what I experienced is that people mostly are playing this out as a sort of online authoring of a fantasy. So like co-writing these kind of fantasies together and actually that most people, Jamie’s Dr. Jamie’s research revealed are not actually engaging in it in any real context. It’s, it is a fantasy and it’s about the ri the the, the playing with risk and enhances sexual pleasure. But, but there are people that are actually, I, I found and I believe having spoken to them for at some length, doing it in real life. And I think I found it exhausting. I, I, as the research for the documentary, I, I threw myself into lots of different forums, not just on kind of hookup apps, but specific websites that are set up for this conversation to take place. There’s a lot of dark stuff. It’s a little bit like the dark web in a sense there and sort of threw myself into these groups. And whilst not everyone who bug chases is into these things, there was a lot of crossover into things like chemsex people that, you know, I was witnessing images and videos of people injecting one another with drugs. Lots of profound self-harm, a lot of derogatory language, extreme BDSM and fetish, which was, that’s, you know, looked quite harmful. And so just immersing myself in that world is, is what I needed to do in try trying to reach people and meet people took, took a bit of a toll on me and on my mental wellbeing as well.
KARL
Yeah. Do you think that those sort of, let’s call them extreme acts, are a form of self-stigma for a lot of people, especially those of us living with HIVI
NATHANIEL
Think in some cases it is the case that it, that it is that going on and, and, and in a sense we should have compassion for people that find themselves, you know, stuck in cycles of what feel like kind of quite harmful behaviors and often addictive behaviors as well. If drugs and drugs and sex we know are very powerful combination. But also in some cases, and in some people I met and spoke to, I just don’t think that was the case. I think people were more empowered and had less hangups about sex and sexuality than I did. And in a sense, I sort of was looking at ’em and going, have I got this all wrong here? Like have, am i, am I policing my body and other people’s bodies in a way that is problematic? So I don’t think there’s a one size fits all approach to this and certainly with, with bug chasing, there’s a whole myriad of reasons why people say that they are, that they sort of fetishize HIV or why they’re sort of into this as a kind of sexual fantasy.
KARL
Yeah, well that’s because, you know, I, I think there’s, there’s an idea and, and you touch on this in the documentary, well, I’m gonna end up HIV positive anyway. I might as well do it my way. And in a way that is kind of a turn on for me.
NATHANIEL
There was, there is a, a documentary from the states called The Gift, which is on YouTube, which came out in 2003, so a very different context. So we didn’t have, you know, the knowledge we had around you equals you, you know, people taking effective medication, not being able to pass it on or, you know, the knowledge we had around prep, pre-exposure prophylaxis, stopping people or people able to take tablets to stop themselves contracting, HIV and all those different options, you know, and that very much focuses on that aspect, really. And some of the people I’m met said the same thing. They said, well, actually the fear of getting HIV and or maybe not even the fear, just the kind of will I won’t, I was getting in the way of, of them being able to explore their sexuality and their full sexual, their, their full kind of sexual expression and relax into that. And so getting HIV on their terms was, was the sort of logical next step. And then within that, the minute you sort of step into this world, then the kind of, you sort of discover that there is a whole, there is a whole culture of people who are into this and exchanging kind of, you know, sexual messages and sexual fantasies, which then I think people kind of fall into.
KARL
Well, and, but, and interestingly too, you know, we’re talking about the chasers there, but as you said, the other side of this coin is the gifters as they’re called, these are HIV positive people who are not taking meds, who know their status are not taking meds and are willingly going out there. And I guess it’s consensual because both parties either are, are meeting on the terms of this is what we’re gonna go down and do, but I struggle to wrap my head around anybody who is HIV positive A, who doesn’t want to get on treatment and be healthy, and b is gifting this virus to somebody. Especially when you look at the generations before us who lived in complete terror and fear that they would pass this on to somebody. And, and certainly in my own case before the science of you equals you, the damage that it did to a 27-year-old Carl when he was diagnosed and the 10 years until I found out about you equals you the fear that I was going to be responsible potentially killing somebody else. I don’t, I can’t, how do you, how did you come to terms with the person that you met in the documentary who is a gifter?
NATHANIEL
Yeah, well it’s interesting because whilst I found obviously what he was talking about really confronting and obviously in the same way to you, like I, I’ve lived with HIV for 20 years, much of that without the knowledge of you calls you. So living with that fear and that constant kind of worry and would never, ever wanting to pass this on and, you know, and, and I think most people with HIV would say the same, but also he was just like, is he a really lovely normal bloke? Like we had a, you know, we had quite a long chat, we both on camera and off camera and you know, he didn’t seem un unreasonable. And the, the, the really tricky thing with this whole situation is we’re not talking about reckless transmission here. We’re not talking about people going out and, you know, intentionally passing it onto other people, which is rare, but does happen. We’re talking about people doing this consensually and in a sense, you know, if you can think it, someone will be doing it sexually. That’s kind of the, the breadth, the broad range of human sexuality. And whilst it’s difficult for us to wrap our heads around, unfortunately there’s, I I don’t really have any answer as to how we change challenge or address that other than maybe looking at the wider impacts of HIV and aids.
KARL
Yeah, well the documentary is called Bug Chasers. The Men Who Want HIV it was a short film for Channel four, but it is available on YouTube, so I highly suggest you check it out. It’s a really, really interesting watch. Nathaniel Jay Hall, thanks for coming back to talk to me at Plus Talk. Always good to see you my friend.
NATHANIEL
Thank you. Thanks for having me.
KARL
Absolutely. That is gonna do it for this episode of Plus Talk where we’re all about turning positive into a plus. If you want more information about what we’ve talked about today or to check out the documentary Bug chasers, the men who want HIV will put all the information up on the website. And remember, you can follow us across social media. We are at Plus Life Media and the website is plus life media.com. Until next time, bye-Bye.